This is what makes plastics particularly interesting as a pollutant, though there are other pollutants that do it too, which is that there's not really a simple nature / culture divide, there's not really an “us and them”, or “it and us”, or whatever you want to call it, and I remember this when I was on one of my first research voyages, is we were out in the middle of the open ocean, there is nothing anywhere near us that you could see above the water, and we came across this floating clump of a buoy with some ropes and snails around it, and living around all of this was not only that bacteria and these sorts of things of the plastisphere, but, like, in huge—like I could eat them huge fish, right, so it was acting as what's called a “fish aggregator”, which is something that provides shade and food for fish, and most of these fish were tropical reef fish, so we’re halfway between Bermuda and New York City when we found this, and so it'd probably started closer to Bermuda near the shore, and this entire little fish village had moved out into the ocean. And the debate with all the scientists on board was, “do we take it out and kill everything, or do we leave it in, even though it's pollution?” I, personally, voted to leave it in, but I was vastly outnumbered, and outvoted, because the other side has understood their primary, and really their only goal - to get rid of plastics. And so they took it out, and the fish died, and all the things living on it died, and so this idea and annihilation, right, the ban, the getting rid of straws, getting rid of plastics, “boo plastic”, in a very complete sort of way is very, very strong, even with scientists, you know, across different social movements, across different sectors, as a sort of annihilation relationship. But I think if you annihilate plastics, just, you know, you can do a thought experiment, you would end up in a B-Horror movie really fast like our roads would crumble, our airplanes would fall out of the sky, like, just things would immediately cease working.