And as you can see, there was no adver­tising. We wanted to make this magazine, and it’s still like this to this day, it’s inde­pen­dent of every­thing. It’s just texts by artists that are looking at society, and different ways of oper­ating within that society to trans­form it, to change it. To give people the feeling that they can create their own visions of the future. It’s always been inde­pen­dent and it’s just untainted by any grants or anything other than the act of exchange where somebody buys it.

Again, these ideas from adver­tising had a deter­min­istic outcome, but the same theories could be applied to quite a different outcome. The outcome that I was inter­ested in was the idea of self-orga­ni­za­tion. Trans­for­ma­tion in the self, or creative poten­tial of the self, so that anybody could create their own being in relation to other people. I was inter­ested in society. I see that there’s a richness in rela­tion­ships between people, commu­nity. That was Control magazine, really. It was the idea to set up a mech­a­nism for people to exter­nalize models of their practice in a society, in a commu­nity. There wasn’t anything like that around at all.